Runway incursions - Part 2 of 2

Voiceover 0:16

Welcome to the CAA Safety Files podcast

Nathan Lovett 0:30

Hello and welcome to the safety files podcast from the UK Civil Aviation Authority. I'm Nathan love it from the CAA's communications team. And in this series we look at a current incident or accident reports that have been published throughout the different areas of the UK aviation industry. We focus on the different report and each episode to find out what can be learned from it. And also hear from aviation experts who explain the relevant safety guidance. Now, this is the second episode in a two part series where we're looking at runway safety at commercial airports. Specifically, we're talking about runway incursions. And if you haven't heard that term before, then in simple terms, a runway incursion is something or someone on the runway or the protected areas around the runway that shouldn't be there. So that could be a person, a ground vehicle or an aircraft. We're looking at what the risks are in this area, and the procedures that are in place to help mitigate them. In the first episode, we heard about a runway incursion incident that took place at one of the UK's international airports. Here's a recap of what happened. Now the report has been de identified and the voice that you'll hear Chantelle Holtom, who works in the CAA's Safety Intelligence Team,

Chantelle Holtom 1:40

Reported by air traffic control. I was operating with medium workload at the time of the incident. Aircraft A landed on the runway and was vacated to the north because another aircraft was pushing back from the stand and preparing to leave. At this time, there was one aircraft rolling out to the runway and Aircraft B was on short final approach to land. I asked Aircraft A to hold its position and the pilot read this back to confirm. Through the window I could see the most recent aircraft to land had vacated the runway. I was ready to pass a landing clearance to Aircraft B when I noticed that Aircraft A was no longer holding its position. It had crossed the stop bar and was now infringing the runway and continuing to roll forwards. I immediately sent Aircraft B around which was late in the approach. Aircraft B conducted a missed approach and once it had established in climb, I instructed Aircraft A to cross the runway, which it did without further incident.

Nathan Lovett 2:32

That report was made by a tower controller who saw that an aircraft which had recently landed was moving on to the runway while a second aircraft was on approach to land. The controller saw the danger and told the approaching aircraft to carry out a go around so that the runway could be cleared for landing. In our first episode, we spoke with Neil Gray, the CAA's Principal Aerodrome Inspector to get his views on that incident. And we also heard from a tower controller and a commercial airline pilot to get their perspectives on what happened. In this episode, we're going to hear about the protocols that are in place at airports to help prevent runway incursions. Neil is back with me for this episode. And we're also joined by Trevor Waldock from Heathrow Airport. So welcome, Trevor, thanks for speaking with us. Please can you introduce yourself and the type of work that you're involved with at Heathrow?

Trevor Waldock (LHR) 3:18

Trevor Waldock, Head of Airside Operations at Heathrow. Responsible for the safe operational running of the airfield. This includes runway safety, but also other air side areas, including ramp safety.

Nathan Lovett 3:30

Great. Thanks, Trevor. Neil and I both have some questions that we'd like to ask. Neil, can we start with you, please? And can you remind us why it's so important to prevent runway incursions

Neil Gray 3:38

Yes, so runway, safety events, including runway incursions continue to be a significant safety hazard at aerodromes of all sizes, and while data shows that the rate and number of runway incursions remains fairly steady, we do know that they still occur from time to time, and they are considered to be one of the most serious safety threats. And I think when you consider some of the most significant, catastrophic accidents at European aerodromes in the last 50 years, all of them were the result of a runway incursion, so that's Tenerife in '77, Milan Linate airport in '01, and Madrid airport in '83. So I'd like to start the conversation by talking to Trevor about runway incursions, and what some of the causal and contributory factors are that could lead to a runway incursion.

Trevor Waldock (LHR) 4:35

Runway incursions tend to occur as a result of three causal factors. One is communication, normally when communication breaks down between the pilot and controller or driver and controller. Another one is errors which are not caught in time. So an error is made and it is not caught in time, resulting obviously, then potentially in loss of situational awareness which is the last one. So a large number of runway incursions will be the result of a loss of situational awareness where, in essence, someone loses where they are on the airfield as a result that their decisions become impacted by the fact that they've lost their understanding of actually where they are on the airfield at any given time.

Neil Gray 5:20

So is it fair then to think that runway incursions may come about as a result of a number of contributory factors rather than a single contributory factor?

Trevor Waldock (LHR) 5:31

Yes, there will always be a main root cause of a runway incursion. But obviously, there are a number of contributing factors. But the key thing is that runway incursions or any runway safety event is investigated. And as a result of investigation, we can understand what the root cause is, but obviously, what those contributing factors are, to enable to put in place effective mitigation going forward.

Nathan Lovett 5:54

Trevor, airports like Heathrow can have quite complex layouts and several different airlines operating there. So some crews will be more familiar with the layout than others. What impact can this have when it comes to loss of situational awareness?

Trevor Waldock (LHR) 6:06

Heathrow's layout can be seen to be complex, but very much what we shouldn't lose sight of is intensity of operations. I think another way of looking at it is that, you know, to serve a single runway or a dual runway operation, you need a certain amount of supporting infrastructure. I think depending upon the intensity of the operation, that supporting structure can become complex. And I would argue that's applicable to both a single and dual runway operation. I think the other thing we need to look at is the users of the airfield. So all airports will have base operators. So they're familiar to the airfield, they know the layout, and to some extent, they will know what routings to expect. So I guess with that comes some challenges of maybe call it expectation bias. And as a result of expecting certain things to be, or a routing to be given, they may make preconceived decisions. Then you need to think about other users. So somewhere such as Heathrow, with a diverse mix of airlines, you've got European carriers, so probably come to the airport regularly, but obviously not as regularly as the base operators. So they will come to the airport very much with a good understanding of the layout but will probably not always be fully aware of any, I suppose recent changes and will probably generally want to be studying their charts more so to get the correct routings. But bear in mind, these are people that do come to the airport on a regular basis. Then we've got the international traffic so these are pilots that may come into Heathrow once a year. So very much they are going to be needing support and guidance, because in essence, it's like a new airfield each and every time they arrive. So I think it's one of those things where, in essence, you could say a layout is complex, but the complexity is very much to deliver the intensity of the operation. And then you've got to think about the mix of traffic on that airfield at any given time, so you add drivers in that as well. So on the airfield, you've got people that are familiar, that are based there, people that are reasonably familiar that come there fairly often, people that don't come there very often at all. And then you've got other distractions, is probably the best way to put it, of people driving around on the manouevering area, that's going to probably catch the eye of the pilot as they're trying to navigate round. So you've got to, I guess, look at it in the most appropriate way and understand the balance that the controllers are trying to deal with when it comes to the diverse mix of operators on an airfield at any given time.

Neil Gray 8:43

What role does low visibility play in increasing the prospect of loss of situational awareness or as a contributory factor to runway incursions in its own right?

Trevor Waldock (LHR) 8:52

I think the initial point to make here is that an airfield is very different when you're in low visibility procedures. So as a result of that, it's easier to lose situational awareness. I think what we shouldn't lose sight of obviously, when we go into low visibility procedures, there's a fair amount of safeguarding activity that safeguards the operation of the aircraft, both in the air as they're coming in to approach the runway, but also on the ground with a reduction in the number of vehicles that are able to be out on the manoeuvring area. When you talk about low visibility, you need as much guidance as you can possibly get. Hence, obviously, when you're in low visibility procedures, larger aerodromes are in routing using the AGL control system. So in many ways those additional safeguards should overcome the potential for the loss of situational awareness because you're getting guidance on the ground. And at Heathrow, you're getting routing to take you to your parking stand. That said, people make mistakes, and therefore may not follow the guidance they're given. So it's a very different place out there in low vis. From a driver's perspective, you are heavily reliant on guidance from air traffic. At Heathrow, we will continue to allow certain drivers to free range as we get into low visibility conditions but obviously it gets down to a point where they too are given direct control from a air traffic perspective, so are directed by air traffic and to some extent, we've then got a situation where everything that's moving on the airfield is completely under air traffic control, given appropriate routing, and therefore should prevent any likelihood of a conflict, be it aircraft to aircraft or vehicle to vehicle. On top of that, you've got things such as surface movement radar, so therefore there's ability for air traffic to monitor what's going on on the airfield. So in many ways, ensuring that the routings that are given are being followed. So I think it's one of those things where it is a very different airfield but the other way you got to look at it is that the tools that are in place, ensure that the airfield is continuing to operate safely.

Neil Gray: 10:57

In terms of who's impacted by low visibility, it must be fair to say then that air traffic controllers, pilots, drivers of vehicles, all have their visibility impacted, which then means they could potentially be less aware of their surroundings. And so the procedures just need to slow things down and space things out a little bit. And also, we need from that to recognise the importance of having good procedures, testing those procedures periodically, and also training our people to follow those procedures. And I guess investigating any events that take place to see if those procedures or that training can be improved,

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 11:42

Agreed. Another way of looking at low vis is that you've got a control tower in cloud. So the controllers have taken away their ability to scan the airfield in the way that they would, during good visibility, so heavily reliant on procedures, a combination of, as I said earlier on, surface movement radar to monitor what's actually happening on the airfield, as well as guidance systems that support moving aircraft and vehicles around. On top of that, you're looking at flow rate restrictions. So therefore, we're limiting the number of movements that the runway can cope with to ensure that, you know, the landing aircraft are safeguarded when it comes to instrument landing systems, and similarly reducing the number of vehicles on the airfield. So you're removing that ability to free range. And then if anyone is out there, they have to be in direct contact with ATC. So very much we move into a world of everything's procedurealized, and therefore, everyone's working to the same hymn sheet. And therefore, it's as controlled as it can be to mitigate the risk that is generated when you're operating in a period of low visibility. And you know, I know for myself, you're literally crawling along out there if the visibility gets down to say 50 metres or so and as we've spoken about earlier on, you've lost that situational awareness, there may be one or two visual clues that help you whilst you're out there. But if you've got a long stretch of taxiway, and the visibility is down to 50 metres, then it's probably difficult to judge where you are along that taxiway. But we've got others monitoring from the control tower, so they know exactly where you are, and can deal with any issues based upon the procedures in place.

Nathan Lovett: 13:26

You've also worked at airports that have single runways and potentially simpler layouts. Can that affect the likelihood of an incursion?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 13:33

I think it's intriguing because when you say a simpler layout, a single runway operation is very different to a dual runway operation. And actually, they present maybe slightly different challenges or another way to look at it is that a single runway operation will have aircraft obviously taxiing up to the holding point to depart. So you've got aircraft coming out to depart, normally on a parallel taxiway. But on that same runway, you've got landing aircraft that are vacating on to maybe the other parallel taxiway or even crossing to the inner taxiway. So, I think when you talk about a single runway operation, especially at a high intensity single runway operation, it does bring challenges that you don't see on a dual runway operation because the dual runway operation is quite simply more often than not one runway is used for departures, and therefore, everything's taxiing out to depart on that runway, and one runway for arrival, so everthings landing on that runway. So you've got big voids of the airfield where there's very little traffic, whereas a single runway operation, especially a high intensity runway, will see more traffic generally across the airfield. And the complexities I guess, on a dual runway operation come then as you enter into the parking areas, and therefore you've got a mix of arriving and departing aircraft operating in the same sort of area. So it's one of those things where each runway I think even configuration there are subtle differences between the two and some ways here, for example, the departure runway is extremely busy in the holding area. Whereas probably a single runway operation, it wouldn't be as busy in that departure area. But it would be obviously busier across the full length, if you like, of the taxiways that serve the runway.

Neil Gray: 15:19

That's interesting. So we've talked about some human factors issues, we've talked about loss of situational awareness. Another human factor that appears to be present in a lot of the runway incursion investigations is distraction. And that includes both pilots of aircraft and vehicle drivers. How do you combat that kind of thing, in your experience?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 15:43

Very much promoting the concept of a sterile cockpit. So very much, you know, from a, an aircraft or airline operations perspective, there's been a lot of work done on that and in a sterile cockpits, you're focused on the task in hand. There's been a lot of work on Crew Resource Management and very much I think that's how the airlines approach it. But similarly, trying to adopt the same sort of approach when you're driving on the manoeuvring area, you need to be focused on the task in hand, minimise distractions, listening out to radio, because for a driver, you've got the visual clues so you're able to, depending on the visibility, have a good understanding of what's going on around you. But if you can listen out at the same time, then that enhancement increases. So very much creating an environment where I guess you're able to use all your senses as effectively as possible. And you have very much this concept of a sterile environment so you're focusing on the task in hand.

Neil Gray: 16:39

And those issues must be exacerbated during periods of either low visibility or at night, during nighttime operations.

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 16:47

I think the thing we need to be mindful of here is that low visibility is very different to night operations. Low visibility can be during the day or night, so very much that gives you a reduced visibility, but at different times of day and night. So we shouldn't lose sight of that. I think the other bit that we should be mindful of is driving on an airfield in the day and night is also very different. So if you think about daytime, in good visibility, you're driving around the airfield based upon paint markings and similarly, if an aircraft is routing around the airfield, or taxiing around the airfield, it's very much looking at visual clues, or the pilots looking at visual clues that are linked to paint markings. We've got some lights that are on so we've got nowadays, a ring of red. So you've got red runway guard bars supported by the runway guard ambers, but very much a different operation. Then you come into night, and night, you've got all your lighting on. So there's probably lots of distraction as a result of multiple lights across the airfield. So I think that's what we need to be mindful here is that anyone operating on the airfield, there are some very different conditions. And when it comes down to training, you know, we need to ensure that people are trained so they understand how to drive in low visibility and ideally experience it but then saying that, you know, the periods of low visibility, somewhere like Heathrow are quite limited throughout the year. But similarly, you need to have experienced driving on the airfield during the daytime, which is relatively straightforward. But as important is driving on the airfield or operating on the airfield at night. Because as I say it's a completely different feeling to be out there. At night, you've got aircraft being routed, if you're free ranging, you're not necessarily following those routings, you need to understand how the airfield is operating, and therefore adjust your driving as a result of the lighting configuration you see during the night period. So I think it's one of those things where the different conditions will have different challenges. But we should be mindful that there's three different states or so of the airfield, and therefore it means that everyone needs to operate according to the state at any given time.

Nathan Lovett: 19:02

Great, thank you. So we've talked so far about causal factors for runway incursions, when the aerodrome or airport is operating as normal. But quite often there can be work in progress that can mean manoeuvring routes for aircraft are changed. What impact can this have in relation to runway incursions?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 19:18

A number again, sort of linked to loss of situational awareness, distraction, as well. So very much what we do when it comes to sort of work in progress is really think about how we safeguard the worksite because we need to safeguard the operatives that are working in that site. But similarly how we think about making sure that the pilots and other airfield users are fully aware of the change in layout. We have airfield maps and we'd look to change the airfield maps and reissue the airfield map to cover off works where we're seeing a closure for an extended period of time. Clearly we're using NOTAMs, supplements as well. But we have to think about how do we ensure that the aircraft is unlikely to manoeuvre towards the worksite. So you've obviously got paint markings, and we'll remove the paint markings into the worksite. With a ground control system such as we've got so from a ground lighting perspective, you're looking to make amendments to the software. So the controllers can't physically put a route through the worksite. So very much, we're trying to set it up in such a way where, in many ways for that period of time, the airfield operates so that that area was never available. You've also got to think about worksite adjacent to runways as well and making sure that we prevent aircraft from vacating the runway at that point mistakenly, because you'll get into a situation where in essence, the aircraft will get into an area of landlock. And when it comes to the contractors is protecting the contractors from entering onto the manoeuvre area, what we tend to do on a worksite will be there will be an area that is the worksite and the contractors can't go outside of that. But we will do additional safeguards beyond that. So there'll be areas marked beyond that, which is the sort of the edge of the area we've closed off. So it's not unusual to have double cones, barriers, etc. So that if someone does go beyond the worksite, there's another physical barrier to prevent them going on to the runway. But there's also a lot around awareness campaigns, you know, toolbox talks, that type of thing, so that contractors understand the environment they're working in, and obviously the risk associated to it. And the way we work here is that if there was an incident, we'd have a stand down. So we'd stand the site down to do a review, before we would let them back out into that area. And the other bit is that don't forget that we've got a scenario where we've got what we classed as permanent worksites. So we've got work sites that can be closed off for an extended period time. If you look at some of the taxiway works, we've done here, you know, it's not unusual for an area to be closed for six, nine months, because of the work that's involved. We've also got the need to safeguard sites overnight, or during the operational day. So we look to achieve the same objectives but clearly, we can't necessarily remove paint markings. So we need to make sure that we close those areas off, it's well marked, it's well barriered, and we communicate as best we can. Other tools that air traffic will have like ATIS messages, we will promulgate as I said through supplements if need be, we would have here operational advice notices that would inform the community of changes, we have airfield works instructions that are very much focused on the teams that are delivering the projects and the safeguards they need to put in place. On top of that air traffic will have temporary operating instructions or supplementary operations instructions, depending upon the type of work. So there's a lot of focus around, I guess, information sharing, but equally, there's a lot of focus on making sure we create a work site that's clear to all users. And that prevents the likelihood of anyone straying outside of that worksite. And obviously, onto the runway itself.

Nathan Lovett: 22:58

Maintenance or work in progress at airports can involve complex plans and procedures, there are many things to consider and information needs to be communicated to a wide range of people. How do you go about planning for those types of situations and mitigating the risks?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 23:10

it's really important that you have a robust change management process. So as I went through, there's a number of considerations that need to be taken on board. And therefore, if you follow a robust process, and you apply the change management process, as we do for other changes on the airfield, then you can step through those remaining projects in a systematic way. And therefore, you'll pick up on all the various elements to get the best outcome. So very much you need to make sure that you've covered off how you're going to safeguard an area, how you're going to communicate those changes. But if you've got that robust change management process, then you're stepping through it, as I say, in a systematic way. And you're doing it with a consistent approach time after time. And therefore, you'll get the best possible outcome as a result of following a meaningful process.

Nathan Lovett: 23:59

Great, thank you. So one of the most important mitigating factors in preventing a runway incursion is having people report, not just an incursion incident, but some of the things that could perhaps be precursors to an incursion, such as distraction, or loss of situational awareness, so that these incidents can be properly investigated to help improve safety going forward. How does this work at a major international airport?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 24:21

it's very much about promoting a just culture, encouraging everyone to report a safety occurrence. In the last few years, we've moved away from just talking about runway incursions to runway safety events. I think that's a really good evolution because it's more focused on in essence, a precursor event. So I think that move to that type of reporting approach opens up the ability for people to raise concerns. So on top of that, airports are required to have a local runway safety team. Here it's referred to as the runway and taxiway safety team. So we encourage a good mix of attendants, so drivers, controllers, pilots, the regulator and others are invited as well. And very much we're encouraging the team to highlight any concerns there. But we have, especially nowadays a number of sort of apps and such like where people can raise concerns. We've also got a flight ops committee. We do regular safety events as well. We have a safety week here twice a year, and the likes of NATS will support us on that. And one of the focuses there has been to engage with tug drivers literally talking to tug drivers around their concerns and challenges they face operating on the manoeuvring area. So in many ways, we're using as many avenues as possible to get feedback and for people to raise their sort of safety concerns, as well as you know, the need to raise an MOR if there's an occurrence. And what we're looking to do is very much prevent the occurrence in the first place. And to get the I guess the intelligence from those that operate on the manoeuvering area on the airfield itself to really understand some of the areas we need to sort of revisit, because quite often, that's what needs to happen. We've done work recently on putting additional paint markings down to try and reinforce where certain taxiways are. This is not uncommon to most airports, but we're listening to the operators and making changes to prevent an occurrence.

Nathan Lovett: 26:17

Is there anything else that people should be aware of or consider when it comes to reporting?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 26:21

Yes, so very much there's a focus on obviously on reporting runway incursions and also runway safety events. But what's really important is the ability to report observations. So you know, be it a controller, pilot, or driver, we've touched on procedures. And very much if you've got an observation on a procedure, then you should have the ability to report that because this is another example of a precursor event. And we should give the opportunity for people to provide observations because we're constantly reviewing process and procedure and through observations, we can look to do that in a, say a targeted way. But very much what we're doing is giving the operators an opportunity to feed back in to the process and make the appropriate changes to a procedure.

Neil Gray: 27:08

Yes, so the airport safety management system is a fundamental part of its runway incursion prevention programme, including, as you talked about there, the runway and taxiway safety team, what other mitigating factors do you think are really important when it comes to the avoidance of runway incursions,

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 27:30

I would sort of talk about the likes of EAPPRI and we're up to what EAPPRI three now. If I think about that, and I've been around long enough to remember when that came in, that was a real fundamental change in I guess encouraging people to think differently. And that's what I think managing runway safety is. So if I talk to my team, even today, I will say to them, for example, if you can avoid crossing the runway, you should. And the response I get back is, but I need to keep competent. It's like yeah, but there's lots of other things that you do and actually, when you need to cross the runway, because of an emergency or whatever it may be, you'll maintain your competence. So very much the guidance that we get through EAPPRI is very much about looking at the physical layout of the airfield. And you know, as time has gone on, there's been enhancements. And what we will do is then revisit what we've got in place to benefit from, if you like the additional or new thinking. If you think about when EAPPRI first came out, runway ahead markings, for example, probably wasn't part of the initial publication. We've got enhanced taxiway markings now. So for me, it's about continuous improvement. And very much thinking about, okay, how do we protect the runway, in the most appropriate way, ring of red is a good example or 24 hour stop bars, and most airports have moved to that because it's the right thing to do. It was sort of not spoken about previously, you know, in simple terms, you had the lights on at night or during low vis, you might have had some runway guard ambers on during the day but that was it. But we've moved to a world where especially with LED lighting that you can have lighting on during the day. This serves to reinforce the fact that the runway is ahead. So I think it's one of those things where that framework, and the fact that you're looking systematically, I suppose at how you operate your airfield through appropriate sort of SMS has been a bit of a game changer, but all be it over an extended period of time. There are simple things around do you need to be on the manoeuvring area, to how do we reduce down the number of vehicles on the manoeuvring area to reduce the likelihood of an occurrence because when you talk to lots of people, oh I need to be out there. Well how often are you out there? why are you out there. You start to challenge people's thinking. You know, if I think of where I've worked previously, we put a perimeter track around the airfield. But what we did make sure as part of that is that we put a road through the approach so that people didn't have to go across the runway. Because when a lot of these airfields were built, this was never thought about. And what we found is that as we've started to challenge, I suppose, our thinking and through application of SMS, we've made a lot of changes. And if I think of how things have evolved as I say over the last 20 or so years, we've made some massive strides. And I think the likelihood of a significant runway incursion has reduced as a result of some of that good work, we're not going to eliminate it completely but we've definitely made some really good inroads, even if I god back to ring of red, the fact that we a lot of us have now got it on timers, so you're in a situation where you're safeguarding the controller is that you've made a decision to allow someone on to the runway, which is great, but you've created like a gap in our defence, and the timer will bring that defence back. And therefore the controller, if they forgot, it doesn't matter, it comes back after so many seconds or reinforces the fact that we want to safeguard our runway.

Neil Gray: 31:08

That's interesting. So I sense that you would recommend EAPPRI, the European Action Plan for the Prevention of Runway Incursions as a solid piece of guidance to enable aerodrome operators to reduce the potential for an incursion?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 31:25

Certainly, and I think the maturity is such that if I reflect back to when it first came out, all of the aerodromes were systematically working through their various recommendations. Clearly, there was a regulator sort of oversight, or monitoring of that. So we've done that piece of work. And I think we move forward as a collective. But each and every time its updated, it gives us chance to revisit, but I think also it's generated a focus where we're looking to do further improvements all the time. So I think it's a really good framework, if I'm perfectly honest, and I would say, from my experiences forms the sort of foundation of how we manage runway safety today.

Neil Gray: 32:03

You just have to look at the document itself, being a Euro control document, the stakeholders that contributed to its development just further demonstrates the coordinated approach that's needed to deal with runway incursions. I mean, there were contributions made by airports by air navigation service providers, airlines, industry representative bodies, air accident investigators. So the contributions that were made to EAPPRI demonstrate that coordinated approach and when you look at the recommendations that it contains, it makes some solid recommendations to aerodrome operators, to aircraft operators, to air navigation service providers, and also to regulators and the providers of aeronautical information. I think what that does is it recognises that everybody has a role to play in preventing a runway incursion. And it's worth mentioning at this point that the European action plan for the prevention of runway incursions, whilst that's a European initiative, there is a more global approach being taken to this and the development of a global action plan for the prevention of runway incursions, which we should see in the very near future. And I think what that does is it recognises the global risk of runway incursions and how standardising the guidance on a global scale should help to prevent runway incursions.

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 33:35

Yeah, and I think the other bit is that the natural evolution has been that it's not just about runway safety, it does then start to link into broader manoeuvring area safety, hence why we refer to a runway taxiway safety team, others refer to, I think, manoeuvring area safety team. So what it for me has done is taken that thought process or people have started to look at things in its entirety, so as a system, and therefore looking at how you reduce the likelihood of a push back error but you're using similar methodology that we've applied to managing runway safety far better than it was previously. The move to a global action plan for the prevention of runway incursions is probably a further step in the natural evolution, especially for airports such as Heathrow with an international mix of traffic, if everyone's working to the same framework. And to some extent, we've tried to achieve that by questions at times to international carriers. But if we've all got the same guidance that we're working to, that will definitely help when it comes to an airport such as Heathrow with an international mix of traffic and in many ways, what they see at Heathrow when it comes to what we've put in place to prevent runway incursions reflected more globally. Then in many ways, it's sort of the final piece maybe in the jigsaw when it comes to this natural evolution of improving runway safety.

Neil Gray: 35:02

If we think about an airport, and the runway at that airport, which obviously can't be physically safeguarded to prevent a vehicle or a person or an aircraft from inadvertently or incorrectly straying onto that runway, we're then left with putting in place mitigations. You've talked about AGL, aeronautical ground lighting and stop bars, I think you talked about paint markings and enhanced paint markings. You also talked about signs, and air traffic procedures. And all of these are mitigations. But all reliant on people, whether that's an air traffic controller, whether that's the pilot of an aircraft, or whether that's the driver of a vehicle. And it's interesting, therefore, that we're reliant on the competence of those people and their understanding of what their role is and what they contribute to runway safety. We've just emerged from the COVID 19 pandemic and seen airport operations return to levels not too far behind what they were pre pandemic, but those same people that we're talking about have maybe either been furloughed, or they could have been working at a much lower rate during that period. Is there any indication that there is degradation of competence, and that that might contribute to maybe an uptick in things like runway incursions?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 36:34

I'd say not necessarily, because there was a lot of focus on ensuring that the competence was maintained. So we made it quite clear here, for example, depending upon the time out from the operation, what training was required, whether that was refresher training or retraining. So we've been very mindful that we're focused on the individual and the requirements to keep the individual competent. Interestingly, here, we went to single runway operations at times. So I think when it comes to runway operations, even though there was one runway operating the intensity of that runway, okay, it wasn't as busy as pre pandemic times, but what it did do was to sort of help maintain competence. I think, if we'd carried on with two runways, that would have been a real challenge. And if I'm perfectly honest, it would have increased our workload when it comes to the need to inspect a runway because we need to get on there after, you know, sort of there's movements for 20 minutes from a bird strike perspective. So I think it's one of those things what we've tended to do is to try to give some thought to the individuals. You know, if you've been furloughed, then there was a view that you could come back and have some refresher training. But if depending upon the length of time that you were furloughed for, you needed to be retrained. We insisted upon that. And very mindful of that, to me working with our colleagues in NATS, when it comes to how they focused on workload from a controller perspective, but there was an acceptance that when the traffic started to come back, that people need a bit more time, so that they were making the right decisions, because in some ways, you can't, you can never completely replicate a high intensity operation. I think the other bit though, for me, when you talk about runway safety and I would say this is applicable to anyone, irrespective of whether or not you've been on the airfield for a few months as part of initial training, or you've been out there for a number of time. And it's probably more applicable to drivers and pilots. When you get near the runway, you need to be apprehensive to some extent, because if you get it wrong, you need to understand the consequence. So I would argue that irrespective of whether or not you're a new driver or an experienced driver, you need to make sure that to some extent, you've got heightened senses when you get near the runway, and in the right way that needs to be trained. Because you do need to make sure that is the place on the airfield that you never make a mistake sort of thing and have that mindset. So as much as we train people, we do need to also make sure that they have that sort of thought process when they're out there, because mistakes can be made. And if you've got that heightened awareness, then in many ways, the likelihood of making a mistake is reduced. I know from my own perspective, I've driven on airfields for probably over 30 years now I think about it, but it's still there. It's one of those things where when I get near the runway, that's an area where I am more focused than I would be elsewhere on the airfield because of the risk associated to it. And the potential consequence of making a mistake.

Nathan Lovett: 39:38

Are there any particular areas that you've been focusing on since COVID?

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 39:41

As we're now sort of recovering, and very much out the other side when it comes to COVID there's a fair bit of focus now the skills fade. So I think some of the work that's been done, has mitigated that but in many ways, we've identified that we've seen skills fade and we need to make sure that we put in place the appropriate mitigation to deal with that I think what we've we've touched on goes some way to demonstrate that is the case. But I think it's one of those things where there's probably a bit more focus on that as we're starting to ramp up. And getting back to the sort of traffic numbers that we were dealing with prior to the pandemic. The other thing we shouldn't lose sight of is through ramp up, we've seen a lot of new colleagues join aviation. So we're now in a situation where we should be mindful that some of them have been with us for a year or so. So when it comes to new colleagues, new colleagues in an intense runway operation means that they've joined us at a time when we were starting to ramp up so we shouldn't lose sight of they're going to operate in a world that's changing on a fairly regular basis. And we need to support them so that they are competent in operating in that intense runway operation, that we will start to experience more so as we return to our traffic levels that we were experiencing before and we're just short of that at the moment, but it's a journey we've got to take people on to ensure they feel competent working in that intense runway operational environment.

Neil Gray: 41:07

I just like to sort of sum things up a little bit. The avoidance of runway incursions is critical. Incursions will always be a significant hazard in aviation. But we've done a lot over the years to reduce the likelihood of them to almost negligible levels. We spoke about the European Action Plan for the Prevention of Runway Incursions being a contributor to that reduction in likelihood, but they still do occur from time to time. And what we need to do is understand what the contributory factors are. And we've spoken about a few of them today. And when they do occur, we trust that people will report them so that they can be properly investigated. And we can learn from the outcomes and act accordingly so that we continuously improve. So we're being continuously vigilant to the possibility of a runway incursion. And I think, as Trevor was alluding to there, in that last part, avoiding being complacent around the manoeuvring area of an airport.

Trevor Waldock (LHR): 42:08

Agreed and the point I would make is also and this has been in discussions with the regulator from time to time is that the key thing is that we investigate the occurrence and whether it's a runway incursion or runway safety event. It needs the appropriate investigation to prevent a reoccurrence. And I think that's something that sometimes people get too focused on how many runway incursions you've had, it's not necessarily about that. It's making sure that we as airports, investigate any runway safety event, and ensure that we apply that learning to prevent a reoccurrence.

Nathan Lovett: 42:43

Thanks very much to Trevor and to Neil, for speaking with us. You'll find links in the Episode Notes to the guidance that they mentioned, including the European Action Plan for the Prevention of Runway Incursions. That's it for this episode. Please look out for the first part of this series on runway incursions if you haven't heard it already. As always, if you have any feedback or suggestions for things that you'd like us to cover in future episodes, please contact us at safetyfilespodcast@caa.co.uk Thanks for listening.

Voiceover: 43:20

Thanks for listening. This is the CAA Safety Files